Demand Generation: What's Working, What's Not and the Role Messaging Plays

[0:05] Intro:

Welcome to Revenue Rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable, and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita, Brandi Starr.

[0:34] Brandi Starr:

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr. We have another amazing show for you today. I am joined by Jamie Walker. As the SVP of Global Marketing at Keyfactor, Jamie is responsible for leading a high performance marketing team that drives brand, demand and experience. Prior to Keyfactor, Jamie held various marketing roles at high growth startups, leading all aspects of demand marketing, including client upsell, digital, testing optimization, account-based marketing, field marketing and channel marketing. Jamie, welcome to Revenue Rehab, your session begins now.

[1:23] Jamie Walker:

Awesome. Well, nice to see you Brandi and thank you so much for having me today.

[1:28] Brandi Starr: 

Yes, it is awesome. For those that don't know Jamie, we go way back. I think back in Vegas, when we held that epic customer event together... the Vegas story. People need to know that I am talking to marketing legends here and not just some random person. It is so good to talk to you. And I like to break the ice with a little woosah moment that I call Buzzword Banishment. So Jamie, tell me what buzzword would you like to get rid of forever?

[2:12] Jamie Walker: 

There's a few. I feel like it's really hard to narrow it down to one. I feel like the phrase that I would like to get eliminated is can marketing just support us a little bit. That phrase could go away because there's a lot of meaning and intention behind that. But I would have to say my buzzword would be -- well its words, dark funnel. And the dark funnel, this mysterious place that everyone seeks to understand, I think the reason why I say that, for us now a Keyfactor it depends on the type of company or how you kind of go to market and who your accounts are. For us we are pretty finite market, so there's not really a dark funnel of people or companies that we don't know. So that was one of the things where I think if you're in SMB and mid-market, the idea of dark funnel is this amazing concept because you get to figure out people who could be potentials, but for us in my world in this enterprise space I'm in, it doesn't mean anything to me, it's just more of I just want to stop talking about that because we need to focus on the people in the funnel that we know.

[3:15] Brandi Starr:

And it sounds so ominous. You think about the dark web, because that's where all the shady stuff happens. I watch a lot of crime drama and it's always someone's out on the dark web, they're scheduling a hit, all these insane things. And so when you say dark funnel, maybe it's just me but that's where my brain goes. It's this total ominous things where criminal activity happens, and totally not what it actually represents.

[3:48] Jamie Walker:

No, not at all. It's actually this -- but yeah, Criminal Minds. I feel like any of those, the secrets always has to be some little sketchy corner or plot going into it. But the dark funnel is very much just -- It makes sense but it can be noisy too. If you don't have a good, strategic direction that you're already marching against and trying to tap into from an addressable market, dark funnel, I think it's more about prioritization. So I say that in a sense, because I do believe in the whole idea of using intent based. I mean, that's how we work here and I would advise any company, if you don't already today, your go to market efforts, outbound and inbound, should be very much driven only off intent data. So we do that, but I think it's just more about using the intent to the people we already know, and the companies we already know is different than driving a ten in experiences for companies that you're not aware of.

[4:43] Brandi Starr: 

Awesome. Well now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to Revenue Rehab today.

[4:51] Jamie Walker: 

Well, yeah, I was extremely excited for the invitation. But what brings me here today is really, over the last I would say 5+ years, being and talking and growing a network of other high growth marketers, CMOs, you learn a lot about how people start especially in the space I'm in. Venture backed companies, there's a lot of scaling companies there today. There's this constant pattern, I guess is a word I would use, about being so focused on the numbers. And I think for many PE backed company, we have AR goals. It's important to focus on the numbers, but sometimes you lose sight of how are you moving that market, and that can be beyond numbers. And so we're at the part where I'm currently focusing on now. And what I see and talk to other people about is like the need to have some sort of brand aspect to start upscaling environment. Although you're really only measured on numbers, you're not probably measured on how much [inaudible 05:50] or other brand metrics or direct traffic that could be. If you're not measured on those things, it's important to have a pulse on them. So making sure you're investing in that messaging, making sure you're investing in that positioning, again, very much within the TAM that you're already trying to penetrate. What is that brand message that's overarching, for the sake of an air cover, I know that can be a touchy word. There are certain words that are so repetitive and marketing and air cover as one. I know some people don't like that word, but there is a little bit of circulating a group of people you're trying to influence with very much trying to get those impressions in front of them, where there's a need to have a little bit of a brand play, a brand awareness play.

[6:35] Brandi Starr:

Okay, so as we jump in to demand generation and the impact of brand, I believe in setting intentions. It gives us focus, it gives us purpose, and most importantly, it gives our listeners an understanding of what they should expect from our conversation. So I'd like to hear what do you expect to be different or what are your best hopes for our talk today?

[7:02] Jamie Walker:  

I would say depending on the viewers here, especially if you're in a role, whether you're leading demand gen, you're in a CMO role and at any other executive position, and especially working for a company that's in a really high growth phase, is that there are ways that you can allocate funds in order to be able to measure brand impact. So I guess my goal here would be, don't be afraid if you're a leader in a start-up company to invest and have positioning with your executive team on how you're going to be able to see and drive results on that, and how that helps paint the bigger picture for your future. So I hope to give some tips on things that we're currently doing here at Keyfactor, I think that's the best way to learn is how people are doing it. And also, driving growth and driving top line revenue but at the same time, focusing on other mixes of the bag of tricks that I say we have in marketing. 

[07:54] Brandi Starr: 

Okay, so you've hit on something really key that I'd like to start with, is talking about demand versus brand. And in a lot of companies, those are different sub-functions of marketing. I've seen, you have brand marketers, and they are the ones that are really focused on all of the brand efforts. And then you have demand gen marketers, and those are the people that are focused on driving demand. But what I hear you talking about is brand as a component of demand. And so I'd like to hear you talk a little bit more about that, because it's definitely a different way of thinking, by comparison to what I hear from a lot of CMOs and heads of marketing. 

[8:41] Jamie Walker:  

That's actually a really good point and I should probably frame around, because I feel like everything has to be in a frame of like reference point. Because I do believe that if you're $100 million company, you should have a brand marker with a brand team that has a whole entire brand initiative and budget. I'm more speaking through the lens of a company who could be series ABC under 100 million, who is really just focusing on that top line growth that 50% year over year, whatever that metric is that you're driving to your board. So you really demand performance marketing heavy on how your team is staffed. And so at that point, there's a few resources that are helping support the overall arching brand of creative, of demand gen at the same time. So I'm thinking of resources that are working in conjunction with demand generation, so people are running programs in Field Marketing, so that you have obviously these turnkey programs that you're operating on. But what we do here is we have brand aspects of brand campaigns that are layered on to our demand gen campaign. So we have overarching messages that are -- when I say persona driven that's not too segmented and cut down, too verticalized. But there are definitely subsets of our between our product and our personas that we have specific brand messaging that's firing off regardless, and not asking someone to download something or take an action, it's just very much there to maybe to get another website visit. So it's more along the lines of -- I guess my frame of references for a company who's maybe $5 million, going up the mark or going up that trajectory, where you really are focused on those numbers but you're doing other components. You're focusing on what that message is and how it relates to your company mission - vision. But also, what is that brand messaging? How does that align with the product messaging, because they definitely come into play together?

 [10:31] Brandi Starr: 

And I think about myself and the impact. As a marketer, you think I'd be like immune to marketing tactics, but I am so the opposite and tend to get sucked in. And I was just talking to a client recently, who was trying to decide between two technologies, and my initial reaction when she said it was, oh, I absolutely love tech A. And I won't call out the brands. And when she was like, oh really, what is it that you like about it? And when I kind of really thought about that, I was like I don't actually know anything about their product. Nada! But I have attended some of their events, I've seen a lot of their collateral, been sent some of their industry reports, I've just engaged with this brand so much that my natural reaction was, oh, I love them. And I had never actually seen -- I mean, I knew what they sold, but I had never seen it never compared it to tech B that they were looking at. And then I did have to step back and say, let me do a more objective comparison. But that is a good point. And Tech A is a high growth organization, who has tripled down on the brand play. And the other is a more established company, been around a lot longer, definitely does not have -- I mean, they have a known brand, but I wouldn't say a strong brand. So that is a really good point, in terms of how intertwined for a high growth company that brand really is.

[12:23] Jamie Walker:

100%. I mean, even your example before, you don't know anything about the product, but you know the name and you know that you would select that one. I mean, that speaks to the whole notion as well. People are researching, people are kind of in their own world, doing your everyday life but the impressions of ads are a thing there. Maybe it's because I'm in marketing, I love noticing how I'm being marketed to. So when I see a company, especially 12:51 Bartech companies, some of them are really, really, really good at it. It's all about being top of mind for when someone's ready to make a purchase. And some businesses are cyclical and people make purchases at a certain amount of time in the year or maybe if you're in government or federal, but other businesses there's not always a timely event for why or knowing why someone starts to research. So that's the important part of staying in front of someone so that when you are ready, already that impression is already there. And I would say like 10 years ago, I don't know if I would. I say the words out loud right now and I don't know if I would say the same thing 10 years ago. Marketing has changed so much and obviously gotten noisier. [Overlapping voices 13:36]. It's hard to break through. We always talk about it. That breakthrough could be another term a buzzword. How did you break through, right time, right place. But there is a little bit of you know, now you're seeing that you have to differentiate a bit and so brand helps you differentiate from some people that aren't focused on getting that message out there.

[14:05] Brandi Starr:

So we know that focusing on brand is working in driving demand generation. What's not working? What are you seeing that people are doing that generally speaking, because I know there's always nuances? One thing that sucks for someone else could be amazing for a different company. But what sort of things are you seeing that people are investing in or spending resources on that are just kind of not doing what we'd expect them to?

[14:34] Jamie Walker:

This is going to be controversial, my answer to this I think a little bit.

[Overlapping Voices 14:39]

[14:43] Jamie Walker:

And it doesn't mean that I don't think we should invest. But I think a there's a big play in conversational marketing, chatting. Everyone wants to have these experience but they don't really want to be talked to. There's been a huge movement and obviously companies have been built, even so the successful companies to what they are today. But I do talk to a lot of marketers who couldn't even tell you the value of their chatbot on their website, at all. That is something that at Keyfactor, we kind of like and have this little internal argument in marketing. People say, oh, we don't need this. Oh yes, we do. The tool that we're using. But I will say the more that I had people on my team investigating, because you get to this hypothesis that you're like, I can test this with talking to other marketers and seeing it. So I actually got on the phone, got on of three different calls -- this was last year -- With some other portfolio companies who were part of the same firm, and everyone said the same thing. Everyone has this great chatbot. I'm trying to figure out how to make it work and how to be able to show how it's driving more. I mean, for me, it's about driving pipelines. We want the chat to drive more conversations, that we talk to more people and open opportunities at the end of the day. But no one can see the value and you need so many resources to put against it in order for it to be successful. And so that's probably the one thing where I generally hear and can say for us, but I honestly think it's knowing that you have to have a lot of resources to support it. But chatbots, I think, for the sake of the conversations I've had in the past 12 months, are probably the one thing that people were really trying hard, but not seeing their return on investment.

[16:22] Brandi Starr:

I would agree. Even though it is a controversial topic, it does seem like conversational marketing was one of those things that was a hot topic for a while. And it became one of those like, what do you mean you don't have a chatbot? What are you doing with your life, and everybody got one. But every conversation that I've had, it's kind of like... The use cases that I'm seeing where people are really successful with chatbots is on the customer service side, in being able to serve customers to get them answers. And so my opinion is that the strong play is in customer retention and not customer acquisition. But that is again, based on my anecdotal conversations with different marketing leaders, it does seem that chat is the thing that's not working.

[17:19] Jamie Walker:

I know, but we want it to work so well. I'm even saying all this, and I'm still evaluating a new tool. Because I want it, it's how I was prospected on the tool. It blew my mind away. So of course, when that happens, I'm like, ooh, I want to peel back all the layers and be like, okay, what is the underlying infrastructure? How does this work? You knew X and I started dissecting it. But that's when you start really understanding how something works.

[17:43] Brandi Starr:  

Yeah. And that could also be the thing, that it's the way that it's being deployed. Everything is data driven. If there's not the data on the back end to make that chat experience what it needs to be, it could be that it's not chat that's the problem, it's more what's being done with it.

[18:02] Jamie Walker:

Yep, totally. It always goes back to the data. That's where we first met in the data world. I was in the data world.

[18:11] Brandi Starr:  

So I definitely believe in everything being data driven wherever possible. So I know, you mentioned that there are some things that have been working well at Keyfactor, specifically for high growth companies. So share a bit about that when it comes to demand because it sounds like you guys have a really clear target audience that's kind of defined. So what are you seeing that's really effective?

[18:41] Jamie Walker:

I guess, I mean, we're having a lot of success in ABX experiences. And I say that not lightly, because it's not every version of ABM - ABX is different to each company. It's very much an internal alignment thing, but we've been really successful here at Keyfactor. So we have a really good strong ABX motion and alignment internally with our team. So when we talk about your traditional events, digital experiences, syndication, we have a very finite program that's going that's lead-based and account-based, that kind of fit together. So we have that and if there's an action we want someone to take in order for them to bubble up and shoot over to the SDR team. We also have a play on these accounts in certain places where we have that general awareness, just digital ads going. And I think that's probably another controversial topic that you'll hear, like oh, digital ads aren't working. I mean, I wouldn't really say digital ads, as far as like display ads on the Google network is a way we're going because that's not, but when you have a good account based motion with good technology supporting it with the intent data, we've been seeing a lot of excess putting brand ad dollars against our demand programs that are happening to those accounts and seeing a really uptick in influenced opportunities being open. So that's something where we were again, very demand gen focused, very numbers focused, those were always our north star here. But we started seeing more success by adding program dollars from a brand side to those demand gen programs. So that's something I would say, is a quick win. There's definitely some underlying process and technology that supported why it was successful. You have to have the right people, process and technology, I think in order to get there. But that's kind of one of the early parts where we started seeing, let's start doing ads that are really just about getting more coverage on this market in these regions. So that there's more awareness, and we were seeing a lot. Again, we have that motion going, we have a strong outbound motion going and then you have marketing, who's feeding all into the intent data driving the experience. So there was a lot of exposure of us in front of these accounts, very specific personas, and it all comes together. I mean, we look at it from a multi-channel perspective. We do use attribution, that's probably another one people hate. We look at it as a guiding star versus it's not something that we look at it to like point fingers on what's happening, but we look to see what channels are performing and where we put our program dollars. So that's where we started by just investing a little bit of program budget into that. Now when we're thinking about we're in this high growth phase, that's looking through a single pane. But when you start looking in the next 3-5 years of a company, you're really setting the stage and the foundation for where you want to be. So we've been doing a lot of work here. And I would say enterprise sales driven organization through and through, we do really well on our product messaging, and making sure we're enabling sales with the right messaging and the battle cards, and all the stuff that comes into enabling sales to be successful, especially in a very technical environment that we're in in cybersecurity. But we're also giving them what it takes to be successful. And I think there's just a lot of things that go into making sure that your sales team is successful now, but when you're looking to the future, it's about setting that right brand message. So I think my point, I was losing it for a second that I'm like, what's the point I'm trying to make? That happens to me sometimes, it's like this little bubble. Focusing on the future means you need to get your product messaging, and your corporate and your brand messaging need to align together. So one of the things we're starting to do is we're looking at the future of our company and where we want to be, regardless of we'll hopefully go through some M&As over the next few years, you can't keep changing your story. In your messages you do that. What is your north star as a business you're going to or who do you want to be known as? And so we've been really focused on that brand messaging. And again, I was talking to one of my board members, and I said, hey, we got the numbers down. It's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like focus on the numbers. When you focus on the numbers, when another thing for us is building a community. And then it's brand in between, because it has a piece that kind of fits into both of those needs as a company. So that's something where that involves getting your executive team around and really looking kind of futuristic, and making sure your mission and your vision align. And that's how you really kind of build that brand messaging. So that's something exciting that we're focused on here at Keyfactor as we're looking for -- we are the company we are today, but we want to be successful and to keep growing we need to be looking far ahead to see what it is we need. So brand has been a big focus for us going into this year.

[23:40] Brandi Starr:

Okay. So I want to jump back to two things you said. First, again sticking with talking about brand. In Episode Five, I got to talk to Russ Somers with Lythos and we talked a lot about their brand and the re-brand that they went through. And he really hit on in that conversation exactly what you're saying around the brand messaging and the product messaging, and who do you want to be in the marketplace, and the importance of that, and what I'm hearing, and he and I talked about that more as a present day evaluation that his company had gone through after a merger. And what I hear you talking about is that that same thought process that they had to go through in that moment, is something that you're thinking about now, understanding that as a high growth company, acquisition is generally what the plan is. So it's really interesting to just compare the two conversations. So anybody who hasn't listened, go back to Episode Five to just really see that this isn't after a merger, we've got to think about how do we put these two brands together and what do we do with that positioning and messaging. But you're saying we got to now start to tell that story and not wait until there's a merger.

[25:09] Jamie Walker:

Yes. And I would caveat to say, we just merged with another company last year. So we did product level. What does this mean? It was a technology merger. So we really focused in investing on product messaging. But when we were at the tail end of the product messaging, it was really when we were -- I guess the reason why we did product messaging was because of the merger. But then we were also looking beyond the product as we were saying, hey, this is not going to be the only time we're going to do this. And we need to create repeatable processes. So I said while we're doing that, we can do that for when we need to enable new products, or how that changes our portfolio whenever that might be in the future. But what is the corporate messaging behind the why? And I think maybe that's another big takeaway. You got to be able to speak your why behind your company early and often. Learn how to speak your why about what you do before you're forced to do it. Because sometimes, I always feel like my mentality is always to try to be ahead of what's coming, I think naturally in life. Just how do I stay a couple of steps ahead? And so it's like, when we went through this merger, we focused on the product, but I felt like we were just kind of singly looking at something as very just product driven versus like, what does this mean as brand and a company. And so that's when, yes, it was posed, but it was really when we started to look at our future, and saying hey, this is going to happen again so let's set the stage and focus on brand so everything fits into our why later on when we make these choices. And so those can be easy, or very challenging conversations for a CMO to have with their executive team. I think it just depends on the relationships, but I think I'm probably a little more blessed than some of the people that you talk to, because that's never been the challenge for me personally in my role today, it has been in my past. But people understand the why and where we're going, or they're willing to invest and have the hard conversations, I think, and we can do it, because we're in a place where we're focusing on the right things, but we also are present and also focusing on the future. So sometimes it's hard to get out of your present.

[27:21] Brandi Starr:

I love that as a takeaway. Speak your why early and often and focusing on the future, and the fact that it is sometimes hard to get out of your present. I'm like, that is so true, that one resonates with me. Because I mean, I can just think of how many companies, you know, I work with a variety of different clients and they're all at varying phases. And just thinking about some of the hurdles that I advise some of my clients through and that is one of them. Just pushing past the present, it is a challenge. I want to jump back to one other tactical thing that you had mentioned, because this comes up a lot, and it is around digital ads. And with all of the privacy things changing, and there's conversations around what does marketing look like in a cookie-less world and all these sorts of things. One of the things I heard you say is, kind of like when email marketing was first big there was this spray and pray with email. And it seems like there's a little bit of that now with digital ads. Not as bad because they cost more, but where people are doing these broad programs, and then saying display doesn't work. And what I heard in what you said is that, where are you guys are seeing success in driving demand from digital ads is where it is truly intertwined into your ABX programs and targeting those specific companies. And I want to have you dig a little deeper into this, because I know that this is a common challenge, especially with those early stage and high growth companies is how to leverage digital in an effective way.

[29:22] Jamie Walker:

Yeah. So if we're talking through the standpoint of again, it's making sure that -- What are you measured on? So I always go back to that. You have to be very specific and anyone can talk about influence pipeline all day. I'm talking in the world of like, you're talking pipeline language and not MQL language. Those are two different types of talk tracks that either you are or are not having in your business, and what marketing is measured on. But the only time we put dollars against digital is through a really targeted approach. So I know that these companies are in market so that's why I'm putting dollars in. I know X is happening so we're a focus segmented group that's getting these certain ads. Like most companies, you started running your PPC ads and you try to do a little Google display on top of the PPC. But if you're getting measured on MQLs, that's probably the route to go. But we look at the success of digital ads in two different ways. We look at it from the influence, and then we kind of couple that in through direct opening of opportunities, which is then layered in with a couple other metrics of, okay, we use this model to inform the intent. We have multiple ways that we slice and dice what's marketing sourcing versus the indirect sourcing of marketing on account-based. We look at it in a few different ways but at the same time, my track that I'm always speaking to, to my boss is very much showing we were here -- I had to make sure we were coming in from a historical standpoint. You got to be able to show if there's an MQL, or if it's an influenced opportunity, depending on what you're measuring on, you have to be able to show value in adding those dollars to get those final outcomes. It's not always the case. When you come into talking about investing in like a platform from ABM that's not easy for a lot of younger companies. And I think I even have discussions every day. And who knows, this is less of a brand takeaway but it's more of a, here's what I've learned. Once you bring in technology, that you have a process and you know exactly how you're going to measure it, you know exactly how you're going to drive efficiency, and how you're going to show that to the business, asking for a larger Martech investment, like I have never been in a company where we can show that return on investment from the ABX platform that does have digital, that does have other components into it, where I can't even imagine like 10 years ago trying to go and bat for that amount of money to invest on a platform. I think it's just really goes into -- and maybe I'm you know, getting off on a tangent a little bit over here. But it really goes into how are you utilizing the technology in order to prove value. And so for us, it's easy for me to say, oh, we have this technology, I'm showing value and these different types of metrics that matter. And digital is just one of those components. I think it really goes into you have to have the right resources to make those investments to be that successful. It's not just like, oh, anyone can pick up and has a $300,000 budget and can be successful by running digital. I'm sorry, that's not going to work. But we drive a lot of efficiency, and so that could be another -- When you talk about the efficiency of what you drive and your marketing spend from what comes on as like source pipeline or closed one business, there's a lot of ways you can look at how you're driving value and efficiency and using that as a -- for us, for me, my efficiency is based on the fact that we have this multi-pronged approach into how we go to market, that isn't just demand focus and lead focus, there's a lot of different things that go into our go-to market focus and effort that has a combination of lead-based and account-based with that add component on top. It's a little confusing I'm sure to some, but it's been wildly successful for us. And I think we are generally a leads-based style of a company. And that's the reality of it, we're not of this giant -- we only report on account base. I have a lead base funnel that I report every month, every quarter up through our board that shows our conversions and everything. But we also have this other motion going on and we pull them together. And that's where we've had so much success and it comes down to the audiences that you're using for the advertising.

[34:08] Brandi Starr:

So to summarize that, what I take away from that is that you've got to have multiple things in motion, each of those things needs to have clear metrics around what you're driving, the numbers you're trying to move is going to dictate the strategy. The technology is going to enable that strategy and then you've got to have the people and resources behind the tech to make it all work. Did I tie that up nicely?

[34:36] Jamie Walker:

Adding a bow. It's all wrapped nicely. 

[34:41] Brandi Starr:

Awesome! I was going to say I got that one. But you know, talking about our challenges is just the first step and nothing changes if nothing changes. So in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client homework. But at Revenue Rehab, we like to flip that on its head and I want to ask you to give us some homework. So can you summarize for our listeners, what are your key takeaways and what is that one thing that each of our listeners can do to move the needle in their demand generation and brand efforts?

[35:20] Jamie Walker:  

The one thing that you can do is tie a layer of brand awareness onto your demand gen campaign themes. That is the one thing that I would say, that kind of sums it all in a little bow, maybe not as nice as Brandi's, but carve out the dollars, know what you're trying to measure from it and you will start. And again, making sure that you have the tools to measure success. A lot of people have very similar Martech stacks these days, it's just all a matter of how they fire together and how they work. So generally, you probably have all these things together but your people are nervous to just even put incremental amounts of money towards brand awareness because they can't show the return on investment, specifically from that vertical. When you package it all in a bow and you start looking at how they're influencing you're going to be in a much better position.

[36:07] Brandi Starr:

So I would say for everyone listening, you're one thing, is where I'll start with one place. Look at one of your initiatives that is happening, and figure out how to add an additional brand play into that one initiative and then we can expand from the one. But let's start with someplace that you've already got dollars tied into, maybe a program that's already somewhat successful, that you've got a good ROI. So throwing a little extra dollars in there for brand isn't going to hurt anything, so that you can start to build that brand to support the growth. 

[36:47] Jamie Walker:

Correct. 

[36:48] Brandi Starr:

Awesome. Well Jamie, I have enjoyed our discussion but that's our time for today.

[36:56] Jamie Walker:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me Brandi.

[36:58] Brandi Starr:  

Thank you and thank everyone for joining today. I hope you have enjoyed our conversation with Jamie. Can't believe that we are already at the end. We will see you next week. 

[37:13] Outro:

You've been listening to Revenue Rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning has just begun. Join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenuerehab.live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at Revenue Rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.