Sustaining Success: The Integral Role of Customer Success in Revenue Teams

Intro VO  00:05

Welcome to revenue rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:34

Hello Hello Hello and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Georgie Papa Kostas. Georgie is a third culture kid born in the US to Greek immigrants, who grew up in the Middle East. She started her career in the public sector at the Embassy of Cyprus conducted healthcare research as an analyst at the Advisory Board Company in Washington, DC and taught English in Spain and Ethiopia. Georgia leapt into SAS and customer success in 2013 2015. Her first CS role was at HubSpot Dublin Ireland office, where she became a leader overseeing the implementation specialist team. Since then, she has led more than 40 global CS professionals across teams at SAS companies of various stages, including Sprout Social show, pad, and work day. Welcome to revenue rehab, Georgie, your session begins now.

Georgie Papacostas  01:43

Hi, Brandi, thank you so much for having me.

Brandi Starr  01:47

Thanks for joining me, I think you have to be the guest that has lived in the most threes for sure. Which is always exciting. Travel is a passion of mine. So now I'm like, oh, I need to go visit all the places she's lived.

Georgie Papacostas  02:01

Well, I've got guidance for every one of them. I think I was gonna

Brandi Starr  02:05

say I will definitely reach out on that. But before we jump into our topic, today, I like to break the ice with a little Woosah moment that I call buzzword. banishment. So tell me, what industry buzzword would you like to get rid of for ever? Yeah.

Georgie Papacostas  02:26

For me, I know we're talking about customer success today, but kind of customer service. And it just all ties together with how we market and position things. But for me, it's white glove. Ah,

Brandi Starr  02:38

no white glove service. It's so funny. I think that term came from the hotel industry or something, you know, something in hospitality and has now crept its way into, into b2b. So I'm sure you hear that term a lot.

Georgie Papacostas  02:59

And do I also, for some reason, I always think of it like Mickey Mouse and Fantasia as well, you know, like wearing the white gloves. But one of the core reasons I really don't like it applied to our industry, well, we'll talk a lot about this is, you know, I'm in customer success. And what we are here to do is drive success first and help people achieve their goals. And I think white glove really is around just like making customers happy. And we can't make happy customers in our industry without making them successful first, and so it's just not about, you know, the swag and the booze and whatever it is that we're sending them to make them feel good. Like, that's, that's really supplemental. But if they bought your product for a reason, we need to know what that reason is. And we need to help them get that reason solved. Get that problem solved, right? Before we roll out the red carpet. So I'm not saying that I don't, I don't want to treat customers that way. But I think when we position our team as white glove service, you know that that's doing a disservice to everybody. Because sometimes what we might do is push you a little bit harder, right? If you told us you wanted to achieve something, we might be the ones giving you a little tough love to make sure that you get it done.

Brandi Starr  04:18

Yeah, I love that. And it's a great segue into our conversation today. But I have to say when I hear white glove service, I also think about making money Thank you.

Georgie Papacostas  04:27

I didn't I don't know if maybe I had a Halloween costume when I was a kid or something or like a mini that had the gloves. But I that's what I always think of.

Brandi Starr  04:33

Yeah, it's I think it's because Mickey's hands are so big and the gloves are so white that that is the first thing I think about is a big Mickey Mouse hands. That's neither here nor there. And I know you kind of alluded to it, but I would like to hear you share what brings you to revenue rehab today.

Georgie Papacostas  04:55

Yeah. So really, I'm excited to be here big because we are talking about kind of the role of customer success in driving revenue, I think I think I'll, I'll put it really simply like that, and we'll talk more about it. But that's, that's really

Brandi Starr  05:10

Awesome. And I believe in setting intentions that gives us focus, it gives us purpose and most important, it gives her audience and understanding of what they should expect from our conversation today. So what's your best hope? What would you like people to take away from our discussion?

Georgie Papacostas  05:29

Yeah, I think I think we're living. I mean, you know, what, I'll be honest, I think we've been living in a really tough time, right, since 2020. I know, we've, we're out of the pandemic. But you know, I think I talked to a lot of people who are still feeling the impact of the changes that that's had to their lives, to how they work. And so similarly, I think in this moment, it would be great if we could find, like quick wins and quick solutions. And I just don't think that that's where we're at. And so I think there's this level of patience and grace that we need to have with ourselves, with our teams, with the moment and with the solutions that we're going to come up with today and talk through that we have to remind ourselves to have and to give to ourselves.

Brandi Starr  06:19

I love it. And you know, it's so many people are very much like, oh, the pandemic is over, I don't ever want to talk about it again, like, you know, don't say the C word. And while I get it, like, you know, I totally understand wanting to put that in the rear view. I agree with you in that so much has fundamentally changed. And the impact of you know, those three years, it is still being felt. And I definitely think SAS companies are, you know, want one that feel it. But before I dive in there, I want to backup I am I always like to allow space for sort of defining things, just because the same industry terms, people look at them differently. So how do you define the role of customer success?

Georgie Papacostas  07:19

Yeah, I'm so glad you asked. I do love this. And I think the way that I think about it is what I said, right? We sorry, I didn't mean it. Like I said, I'm just like revisiting, I'm actually you'll, you'll learn this about me, I'm pretty since I'm in a customer facing role, I'm really sensitive to language, right. And so, you know, as I said, before, those are things that I make sure my teams don't leverage with their customers, right? Like, we want to be having really, really kind conversations. And I also think that you can be direct while being kind. And that's what we're here to do. We are here to help you achieve your goals, and not just here to make you feel happy. Which means we are a consultant and an extension of your team. Right? We're going to take some time to dig in and understand what challenges are you facing today? How are you approaching those challenges? And then what can we do to support you in that, and that's where I think the support comes through. But it's really important that customer success teams are kind of goal oriented, and that those goals are driven by their customers. But what I was mentioning before around, also like being an accountability partner, right? If you're investing in a software or a service, it means that you either don't have like the time, or the capabilities, or the people or the resource on your team to solve it. And so you're reaching out and looking for a partner. And so, you know, partner I think is sometimes another buzzword in our industry, we talk about having partners, you know, having partnerships, but it's really important that we take the time and have the patience to build a certain level of trust between us and our customers. So that then we can be the people that help them drive towards those goals and see success.

Brandi Starr  09:15

I love it. And so just a couple more foundational questions so that I fully absorb your perspective. There are varying opinions as to where Customer Success should get involved in the revenue process. You know, some feel it should happen pre sale some, you know, feel as soon as the sale happens, some feel that's later in the process. There's lots of schools of thought there and so I'd love to hear your perspective on where in the journey. Do you feel like Customer Success should be involved?

Georgie Papacostas  09:56

Yeah. I almost I almost gave you the it depends answer, but then I realized there's really a simpler answer. And it is what is best for the customer. So what I mean by that is, we know we've all been a customer that's had to repeat themselves. And that is the it from my perspective, that's the experience that we're trying to avoid. That's like the number one thing that you don't want to do for that customer. So that means if they're sharing a bunch of information, pre sales, that your process then is designed for your CSM to just go ask them about again, you don't have it, right, right, because that's not going to create a good customer experience. But it's also going to delay in the driving towards goals and success, because you're losing time by spending moments on things that you've already shared. So while I do think it depends on kind of like the size of the business, the complexity of the product, or software that you're implementing, you know, as long as you have mechanisms for shared knowledge transfer, it's less about where they're where they're positioned, and more about setting both the CSM and the customer up to get started and hit the ground running. Because I do think I do think it can, it can work in different in different methods. And I've certainly joined a lot of pre sales calls, which I think is really, it's just really, really reassuring to clients, right, when they can meet that person ahead of time. And, you know, hear from them what they can expect. You know, it's certainly a reassuring experience.

Brandi Starr  11:37

Yeah, I know, I've been, let's call it a victim of the the bait and switch a little bit with purchases where, you know, absolutely have a great relationship with the sales rep. And, you know, I feel like they get me in my business, and then post sale, you get handed off to someone else who you may or may not vibe with, and, you know, it's like, can I talk to that other person. And you know, and that's never a good thing. So I do agree, just, you know, thinking about it from a customer perspective, being able to at least meet and interact and kind of, you know, get a feel for who you'll be working with long term can positively impact the sale. But I also the other thing that you said that I think I really, really like, which is, you know, as a consultant I use it depends all the time, I have joked that that should be my next tattoo is just, it depends dot dot dot. But I really like your answer in that it's less about where they make direct contact, and more about that knowledge sharing so that they are getting all of the information. Because I mean, you think about all the technology we have from, you know, call recordings, that sales is doing, you know, the AI transcripts and all these different things, there may be ways that that knowledge can be passed on and internalized by the CSM, without them being directly involved. And so I do think that that is a good thought process for whoever is, you know, orchestrating the roles and responsibilities throughout the customer journey is to think less about who needs to be where, and more about the flow of information. So I think that's, that's really great advice. I think though, the one other thing that I hear debated a lot, which I have strong opinions on, is whether Customer Success should have anything to do with renewal accountability, whether it's compensation or just goals, but whether you know, whether they should carry a bag, so to speak, because in aligning them to revenue, there are people you know, there is one school of thought that they should have a number that they're accountable to

Georgie Papacostas  14:08

Yeah. So here we are, we're diving in. And I have so i It's funny, you kind of took me down a trip down memory lane in terms of like how I got started and like where I am today because, you know, we're in 2023 now and I'm thinking to myself, who I'm getting closer to that like 10 year mark in SAS and customer success. When I started as a CSM. The term customer success manager was very new. I actually was hired as an international account manager and then started as a CSM right the title got changed and at that time, I had a monthly recurring revenue target. Even though I was the CSM, right I was the post sales contact. I was there. I wasn't doing the onboarding, but I was managing the entirety of the customer lifecycle. And all I was intended to look after was, um renewal and expansion. And then about two years into that we realized, hmm, like, we have a product adoption problem, right, we have a lack of serving as a consultant problem. So we're gonna scale away these targets, and have CSMs focus on just being the consultant. But then what do you think happens, the net revenue retention starts to drop, because to your point on the relationship, you felt with that sales rep and vibing with them, most of the time, are CSMs, at least six to nine months in, have now created those relationships, and they have that vibe. And so they've got the trust, and they are best positioned, to at least identify if not close that business. And so I do think, you know, we're, we're seeing this conversation happen so much more right now, a lot of it as a result of like, these changes that we both kind of alluded to, in the beginning post pandemic. But I do think that customer success managers, and and again, you know, it depends a little bit on the size of your business, again, the complexity of what you're implementing, you know, if you're a massive operation, and you have the time and resource to give someone a five person account team, like, that's really great, right, and that might work for that model. But we're more talking about b2b SaaS companies kind of in this realm of where I think you and I are both on the same page. You know, I do think CSMs are really well positioned. And if I can share a little bit of a personal anecdote, you know, I, I went to implementation management because I wanted to get out of the funnel, and I didn't want to manage contracts. And I was, I was tired, and I had this perspective of, you know, sales isn't for me, I don't like sales. And then I think you just build up enough experience to realize everyone is sales, everything we're doing is sales, because even as a CSM, even if I don't have a quota, as soon as my main point of contact leaves, and I get a new person, I have to sell them, I have to resell them on what somebody else bought. And now I'm still serving in a sales capacity. And so that's been, that's been a journey that I've gone on, but that I hope gives me a little bit more empathy towards people who might be hesitant to take on right, like a revenue target or a quota in a CS role. Because a lot of us just feel like it's not for me, right, it's to thinkorswim you know, it's not something that I, I can excel in, but when you realize that you're doing it in other aspects of your life, and then it's really transferable, I think people can be successful. I don't want them to, like, No, my high horse or long or,

Brandi Starr  17:45

and yeah, that is that is my opinion as well is I do feel like Customer Success should carry a number. Now what that number looks like is where I think it's different. I think where some companies go wrong is they comp them, like similarly to sales were like too much of the number, you know, too much of their comp is tied to sales, and it creates a different behavior than what you're going for. But I do think that there does have to be some accountability for the revenue. And, you know, in some cases, that's like renewals, I've seen in some companies where customer success also has, you know, a more official consulting capacity. And so that's what's being sold, or, you know, cross sell upsell, like there's a lot of opportunity. And I truly believe that, you know, what you are incenting people to do, those are the behaviors that are going to happen, that's it. And so, so, yeah, so Okay, those are some of the key foundational things that I'll you know, that were top of mind for me. And I know that, you know, a lot of marketers focus so much on marketing for the sales side and the initial sales process and a lot of my career was spent in customer marketing and so my passions lie more on that, that side of the business, which is more friendly with customer success. And so in terms of revenue and the whole like, process, where do you see the disconnects that you feel are leaving revenue on the table? Like where is CES? not plugged in that they should be in order to better drive revenue?

Georgie Papacostas  19:41

Yeah. I think man that's a great question. And as you talked about, like having a having customer marketing experience, I'm, I have this dream of mine where like, if any, any role I ever went to like it was it'd be like me and the customer marketer, right because like, just to go hand in Hand and have someone to support all of these really important activities that either I don't have the expertise for, or I don't have the time for because of like, the size of my team or the size of my book or, you know, whatever I'm working on there. And so I'm really glad that you brought up customer marketing and how important it is and how sometimes that's something that we're not investing in that we need to be and customer marketing, not just from an expansion perspective, right. But from from an adoption, right. I mean, the marketing teams spend so much time understanding how to position. And like I said, before, we are constantly selling in an environment like today, we're selling against, most of the time, we're not selling against competitors anymore, right now, at least in our experience we're selling against, we'll figure it out on our own, right, like we're cutting costs, and we'll just figure out a way to do it ourselves. And so to answer your question on, where are we potentially not plugged in, I actually think that's often the gap, right, is that we don't know what we're up against early enough. And, you know, we we close the sale. And so we think we have all this time. But we're living now through a time that shows us how quickly things can change. And so some of it is understanding like competitive intelligence versus like the cost of doing nothing intelligence, right. Like, I think that's a place where we could spend more time and also could benefit from like more kind of cross functional collaboration with marketing, like I, you know, I'm, I'll be honest with you, I didn't anticipate our conversation to land here. But it's such a wonderful, wonderful reminder of like, why companies that work in silos don't succeed and how important it is for us to create alignment. And when we talk about CES, we most often talk about strengthening the relationship between sales and customer success. When we talk about sales and marketing. Right. I'm a HubSpot alum. So we talked about smart getting, we talked about the relationship between sales and marketing. But what about that third one? What about that relationship between marketing and CES? What should that look like? And how can we kind of better create a better relationship there so that we can take all the knowledge that marketing has and give it to the CSM, and then take the feedback, right, and the reaction to that stuff and get it back to marketing?

Brandi Starr  22:33

Yeah, cuz I definitely think there is a gap there. And just thinking about my own experience, I used to work for a software company that did ERP and accounting software. And, you know, I didn't come from a financial, you know, industry background. So a lot of that was new for me, ended up on a business trip, there was a group of CSMs that were there for a whole different meeting. And we just happen to end up in the cafeteria together, like they brought in food for just all of us. So you know, it ended up being this like CO meeting lunch, and just chatting with the CSMs. And, you know, I can't even remember what question I asked. But I asked something, and two of the guys at the table perked up. And they were like, Oh, let me tell you. And like, this is the thing that, you know, we had like that people love that they talk about that is like the main reason why they don't even consider leaving. And it was some like, feature functionality I never even heard of. So I'm like, we're clearly not promoting it in our marketing efforts, because I've never heard this mentioned. And so it became this like door opener for, you know, a space that I had been struggling because, you know, we had the wrong contacts that I was marketing to for cross sell. And so it was like, oh, like, this is the common point. And that was just from a happenstance. Yeah, lunch. And so thinking about if there's a way to make those connections, where they happen regularly and that knowledge share, I think it you know, it helps on the front end of trying to drive net new, but then it also helps on the back end with adoption, retention, cross sell upsell, expansion, etc.

Georgie Papacostas  24:29

Yeah, all of that. And, you know, as you're talking through that, I was thinking about our intention, right, like patience and grace, like what we don't want is people to listen to this and then go, you know, have a marketer go ping a CSM or have a CSM go ping a marketer with like, 20 questions, right like that. That's not it, right. So it's being thoughtful about okay, if you're hearing this and you're thinking, Yeah, this is a gap for us. Bring them this, like bring them this clip or like bring them this talk track or this example and say, How can we be thoughtful about Making this regular also, right, because if we do the one meeting thing, that's the that's one and done. And it's not going to get you what you need, which is the continuous feedback loop that you just said The door was open to, like, continue to revolve, right. And so I think that's really that's like a really important takeaway for people listening in as well. And again, a good reminder to myself, like I, that's one of the reasons I love to talk about this stuff. Because I'm not saying that I'm an expert in it, and that I'm flying it all cylinders all the time, these kinds of conversations are so important, because you realize, oh, here's what I'm not doing. Like, I've got to bring that back to my team too.

Brandi Starr  25:41

Yeah, and something I just thought about it as we were talking about this, because in some cases, I've seen companies try to implement systems for creating a feedback loop. And in some cases, in order to make it you know, scalable, repeatable, all the buzzwords, it can get over engineered. And, you know, I think about we follow an agile marketing method and getting things done. And a key part of that, is we do retros around the work, like, why couldn't there be a revenue retro to just talk about all the renewals that have happened, the deals that have closed the things that have been lost the problems, you know, that are happening, the campaign's that works, like having some sort of recurring open dialog, to not, you know, over engineer that feedback, but to really actually get people talking? Like, you know, it's always hard to get people to commit to meetings, like I know, nobody wants another meeting on their calendar. But when you have actual meaningful conversations, like, it seems like you talked about quick wins, it seems like a really low effort way to get those dialogues happening.

Georgie Papacostas  26:58

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting idea. Because typically, right, we have like a monthly or quarterly or a biannual, or an annual kickoff, and every department has their section. But it's probably not in depth enough. And each department has hopefully gone through some sort of retro in that way. It'd be very cool if you could be a part of each other's Right. And, and, you know, we'd be really explicit about the role everyone is intended to play, like, it's okay to just come as a listener. But chances are, I mean, this is why we talk about the diversity of thought, right, and why it's so important to have people from so many different backgrounds and roles and experiences, and you know, all of the things that you could think of, because we all think differently, and that's why it's so important to have us there. Right. You know, like you just said, we were not thinking about the thing that the CSM brought up, and all it took was one conversation for us to be reminded of that. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's a really cool idea to continue exploring. And I feel like you coined a great term for it to the revenue retro, you know, like, I've done, I've done a term retro, I'm, you know, I'm, I've done so many retros like that. But, you know, we've done a holistic revenue one, I really liked that idea.

Brandi Starr  28:25

Yeah, there's, there's just a lot of insight that I think a lot of the other mechanisms for feedback don't always capture. And when I think about like kickoffs, and things like that they are so information pushing like, they're, you know, not as often and I won't say some people do them well, but they're more How do I push information to people? Yeah.

Georgie Papacostas  28:48

And in like, a rush timeframe, right. Most of the time, it's like, oh, okay, and I'm, I've got three minutes left. So I'm just gonna skip this slide. And then, you know,

Brandi Starr  28:57

and so my last question for you is a bit of a I don't know what I don't know. So CES, I've never worked in CES, I think we are customer success certified a number of us on our team. So we leverage a customer success methodology, but I've never actually done the job. So I'm gonna ask a really open ended question in Is there anything I have not thought to ask about that you think is really important to bring to the conversation around how ces plays a key role in revenue? So just a total Zinger, like, just in case there's something pressing that I haven't thought about?

Georgie Papacostas  29:42

Yeah, um, I mean, I think if I were to, like pull on an additional thread, because we talked about we just like talk really briefly about like revenue or expansion, right, like renewals or expansion. You know, whether or not CSM has a variable target and is responsible for renewal. That individual is going to feel responsible for that renewal. And so I think it's something to keep in mind as leaders. And then it's also something to think through as you design, like, what should that revenue target be for them? Because, you know, even if you're even if you're a consultant, right, if, let's say you're like on the professional services team, and so typically those teams aren't really tied to renewal. But of course, there's like an impact that they want to drive. And of course, any accounts that they're brought into, they want to see move forward. So I guess what I'm trying to say that is that, like, even if there isn't $1, or revenue target attached to that role, there's still like a feeling of responsibility, because of all the time and effort that goes into that trust building that the success and goal understanding. And so, you know, that's I think, maybe I'd say it's just like another reason why this is the direction that we're moving towards, right? Because there is like that connection to the customer that, you know, teams want to maintain.

Brandi Starr  31:16

Awesome, I'm glad I asked my open ended question. Well, talking about our challenges is just the first step and nothing changes if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist will give the client some homework, but here at revenue rehab, we like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So I always like our guests to walk away with their one thing, what's the one action item for those that are listening that want to move the needle in being more collaborative, and breaking down the silos between the various teams and CES and leveraging CES in order to help drive revenue? What action item would you give us?

Georgie Papacostas  31:59

Yeah, I I'm you teed me up for this without being meaning to with your story about the lunch. But it's very simple. This is something everyone can do. And I hope you all commit to it. Go and find a CES person that you haven't connected with yet and have a 20 minute conversation with them. And that's it. I don't even think you need like a crazy agenda. Just do the open ended thing. Like Tell me a little bit about your role. That's all.

Brandi Starr  32:26

I love it. And I would challenge everyone throw a little lunch in there, too. Yeah,

Georgie Papacostas  32:30

I was gonna say coffee or doughnut or something. Yeah.

Brandi Starr  32:33

Always meetings are always better when there's food.

Georgie Papacostas  32:37

Even if you do it in person, or you both bring something to it, it's

Brandi Starr  32:41

Yeah, I have done the virtual lunches. It's something about eating on camera that just is both weird, but actually makes it very casual and conversational. So it's like it works. Well, I have enjoyed our discussion so much. But that's our time for today. But before we go, tell us how can our audience stay connected with you?

Georgie Papacostas  33:11

Sure. So probably the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. I know that Brandi mentioned in the beginning that I work for sales assembly. And so one of the things that we love to do is break down those silos. Essentially, we bring together the members of sales assembly to have conversations like this, with a lot more people in the room from a lot of different organizations. So I would love for anybody to connect with me because I sit in a really privileged space where I get to overhear a lot of conversations from people like that in our membership that I'm always happy to share kind of the learnings and always looking to others and to learn from you all as well. One of the things I always say in our kind of sales assembly sessions as I thank people for their generosity of knowledge, being generous with their knowledge. I appreciate you today Brandi for being really generous and thoughtful with like the questions that you brought to the table. So I'm looking forward to connecting with with whomever wants to, if you if you happen to take a listen.

Brandi Starr  34:18

Awesome, well, we will make sure to link to your LinkedIn wherever anyone is watching or listening to this podcast. And I have had the privilege of interviewing some other folks from sales assembly. So after you finish this episode, I encourage you to go back to episodes 5455 and 56 where I had a whole run of three weeks in a row I had the sales assembly team, and they've been some amazing episodes. So it's really really excited to connect with you here as well Georgie,

Georgie Papacostas  34:53

thank you so much.

Brandi Starr  34:55

You are welcome. I hope everyone has enjoyed my conversation today. I can't believe we're at the end. We'll see you next time.

Outro VO  35:06

You've been listening to Revenue Rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over, but the learning has just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue rehab dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.