CMO vs. CXO: Who Owns the Customer Journey

Intro VO  00:05

Welcome to Revenue Rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable, and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:34

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host, Brandi Starr and I have another amazing episode for you today, I am joined by Brian powers, Brian has a background managing customer operations and product management. Most recently, he was the chief experience officer for a financial services firm. He's worked closely with marketing to improve revenue retention and overall customer satisfaction. Welcome to revenue rehab. Brian, your session begins now.

Brian Powers  01:07

Hi, Brandi. Good morning. Thank you very much for having me on today. I've been watching the other videos if anybody else hasn't, you can rewind. They're all online, and great resources.

Brandi Starr  01:17

Yes, I am excited to talk to you, Brian and I work together. I think that was probably almost 15 years ago, at AIG. And, you know, I think both of our careers have progressed in very different direction since then, so excited to reconnect with you, and to talk a bit about customer experience. But before we jump into that, I like to break the ice with a little woosah moment that I call buzzword banishment. So what buzzword would you like to get rid of forever.

Brian Powers  01:50

So since I preview the other videos, I knew you're gonna ask this. So for me and my background, it's in big data, when we hear Big Data, and especially when people not familiar with analytics are throwing it around, it sounds a little hollow. Of course, things are run and analyzed in aggregate amounts, especially now there's more information than ever, more touch points than ever, in ways to get your voice heard by a company. So we're all using big data. So we can stop referencing this was developed by Big Data.

Brandi Starr  02:20

Yeah, it is one of those buzzwords that it's almost like, you know, it makes people feel like something is more important, because big data was involved. And, you know, when that first became a thing, I think it was a big deal. But now you're right, like, everything is leveraging big data,

Brian Powers  02:41

across all touchpoints. We know more about our customers than ever, that helps shape the customer experience, marketing acquisition strategies and what the CROs are doing. It's all fundamentally built on large amounts of data.

Brandi Starr  02:55

So I can promise that at least for the next half hour or so we will put big data in the box. And we won't say that one. And now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to revenue rehab.

Brian Powers  03:10

Well, depending off of a discussion we had previously, it's about the role of a customer experience officer CXO versus a CRO or CMO, head of marketing, and who owns that overall customer journey, end to end.

Brandi Starr  03:26

Yeah, and I love that. I mean, you know, we wrote the book around the next generation of revenue and how you have to have revenue looked at as a single team and customer experience is a really big part of that. And so really looking forward to diving into that. Before I go deep, I believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, it gives us purpose, and most important It gives our audience and understanding of what they should expect from our conversation today. So what would you like people to take away? What's your best hope?

Brian Powers  04:00

Well, we're starting with the end. So I would say we want people to understand the customer's journey is more than buying the product, right? It starts with expectations set forth beginning in coordination with marketing. So all the different touchpoints the collateral that's made the training for the sales reps, the website, through delivery, and post fulfillment, right. So when they're in life, and even how they exit, right, you've ever tried to cancel a magazine, it is maddening and make it very difficult. So that's great for marketing is bad for the overall experience. So you might see that in the surveys. So we have to see the whole journey as holistic. It's not gotcha management. We made the sale and we move on. It's more about that relationship. And now with so many survey places out there, Trustpilot, Yelp, Google, Better Business Bureau, many ways that people can sound off if they're not happy. And that's where the mix between more Marketing and CX laws.

Brandi Starr  05:01

Okay, and so I always like to start with just some grounding questions, because I think everybody defines things differently has different perspective. So from your experience and perspective, what would you consider the role of a CXO? Like, what is what's kind of the scope of that work, and what should the CXO own,

Brian Powers  05:25

the CXO brings the voice of the customer to every meeting, using large amounts of data and statistics, in true revenue, to prove points with others that it's not just about acquisition, or even retention, it's the end to end journey that there's a true lifecycle cost for a customer. So it's important to set priorities up front and expectations, what they'll get when they'll get it all the way through them receiving the services. So the role of CX is either owning all the touch points, or looking across the whole journey beginning to end and understanding where the friction points are, and then working with individual groups to make that less friction process.

Brandi Starr  06:08

Okay, I definitely love that. And you know, just being a consultant, I see how different organizations are structured and kind of who owns what, and that role of actually owning the whole journey is something that I see that is missing in a lot of places. And that is where you get that inconsistency of like a great, you know, sales experience, but then onboarding is, you know, horrible, or, you know, you like horrible sales experience, but then like, Should someone actually buy? It's like, great on the other side. And so you have to really pull that together. And so how do you see the CXO? Working? Ideally, with marketing, like what is what is the strong relationship there look like?

Brian Powers  06:56

I think being invited to the different meetings. So one thing about being remote with a lot of people, you can bring others in geographically, just with a zoom teams go to meeting format, and have a person from the CX team representing that group and representing the customer. It's almost like having the customer in the room, because we're the ones who listened to most of the feedback, do the NPS surveys, monitor the website for comments, and look at the overall purchase behaviors. So it might bring another perspective where we're building something from the inside out versus looking at it from the outside, in, it's a Forrester customer experience book, saying every process needs to be looked at, from the view of the customer, for example, our website, and we call it UX or UI, the user experience made sense to us, because we're a bunch of finance people. But when we put it in front of a focus group, they're like, What does these different words mean? And why do I need to sign this? attestation? That sounds very financially important. And do I need to have a lawyer? So looking at it from a customer's perspective, and using their lexicon, which is very different than ours, can make things simpler, and reduce costs?

Brandi Starr  08:07

Okay, and so where do you see the disconnect happening? Because, you know, I would say more companies than not have not mastered the journey. And that inside out approach, and really making sure the customer's voice is intertwined into everything. And so like, Why do you think that most people are not nailing this?

Brian Powers  08:29

I think we're seeing it due to voice of the customer. And we're hearing post transaction, how did this meet your expectation, and that needs to be shared not just with operations in life, but up front, and their changing business bizdev compensation. So it's not when you make the deal. It's when the customer stays with you for so many years, or renews that they get a larger part of the money. So it's more important to them now than ever. And I mentioned gotcha management. One example is from Verizon. I can mention them by name. I went I ran customer operations, our marketing team had a new promotion, best internet speeds of your life guaranteed. But guaranteed what right? So people will call up and say this is the best feeds I've ever had. I want my money back. So we started issuing refunds, and the coals were lining up. So my costs were increasing. You know, the mandate from finance was quit giving out refunds. But it created this friction between groups. And I went to marketing, I said, you're killing us out here. Right? What is this actually means? And they said, Look, if we tell them the truth, we will make as many sales. True story. So I had to go back. I can't just pound on the table. But you go back with data and you say, each call cost $6. And we're getting 10% of the customers are calling we're doing these refunds. Here's the actual ROI of your project. And they understand that there's more empathy, they have their goals, but as a company we all have to work together.

Brandi Starr  10:02

Yeah, and I think you just hit on a really strong point, something that I believe very solidly in is that, you know, what gets measured gets done. And you talked about how sales is being measured, you know, not getting all their comp on the initial sale. And I do think that we really have to align, how each, you know, part of the journey, we call it the domino effect, where you're lining up all of those goals to fit together. Because you're right, like, if I in marketing am only measured by how many people do we get, you know, to the website that converts, then yeah, I'm gonna say whatever I need to say, so that, you know, people convert, and it's like, my hands are clean, I did a great job, like, that's your problem on the other end. But if we're all focused on that long term, revenue, lifetime value of the customer, and I'm not just measured by feet in the door, then I start to change how I operate. And the same thing, you're talking about sales, if sales didn't get all their money on the front end, guess what, they sell a little different. And they sell to customers, you know, in a way that is very sustainable.

Brian Powers  11:15

Yeah, so we want them properly setting the expectations up front. So it's not just that short term, we want to keep the customers. And so we look at collateral, and always referenced, this is funny. And all my always reference things like restaurants. So if the average wait time is 20 minutes, the front desk can't tell you 20 minutes, because half the people will be upset. So they want everybody to be happy. So I've ever been told it's going to be half an hour. And it's really like 10 minutes, because they measurement, they don't want to hear the customers come back. Because at 20 minutes, my wife is saying that other couple came after us, they forgot us we're not on the list, go back and check. So that's why you have to set it to like the 95%. So same thing with delivery times, right? This is expected within two to three weeks when they know it might be a lot shorter. So we have to work together on what are we actually performing. So those expectations are properly set?

Brandi Starr  12:10

Yeah, it's the the under promise over deliver. And you know, some people have different opinions on that, but I am with you. And you know, stuff happens. And even when an organization has the best intentions, if you pad things a little bit, it gives you some wiggle room. You know, I always think about flights. I'm a loyalist to Delta Airlines. And I generally land at least 20 minutes early, almost every single time. And so it gives them the wiggle room of you know, there was an issue with the boarding gate not, you know, connecting to the plane, and it delayed us 10 minutes. But guess what, we're still landing 10 minutes early. So people are happy, because it's like, Whoa, I know, we took off late, but guess what, I'm still at my destination early. And so I think that's kind of the other piece in thinking about that experience, is when you are under promising, it also gives your teams the ability to account for the oopsies of things that just you know, don't go as planned.

Brian Powers  13:16

Right, right. So it's back to those what gets measured gets done. In the call center space, we had a really long talk time on average, and we incented people to have a shorter call, ah t or average handle time. Well, all that upfront, getting to know Yeah, empathy and closing that all went out the door. Right? They, we started recognizing people for the wrong metrics. And so you have to pull that back, you know, so what gets measured gets done domino effect your words to an extreme?

Brandi Starr  13:47

Yeah, and that that is a great, you know, I think that's a great point. And a place where that CX role being an overlay to all the revenue teams in being that person or that team that really accounts for the customer's voice and journey, and kind of dipping their toe in all of the places creates a cohesive experience. So I want to shift a little bit and really talk about the connection between the CXO and marketing, and the actual communication journey. Because this is, you know, in talking to CMOs and other heads of marketing, this is a place where there are a lot of challenges. I mean, it's you know, kind of the reason our consultancy exists is to solve that communication journey, you know, all the dysfunctions, and you talk about the different friction points. And so, what is it if I'm the head of marketing, and let's assume I do have a strong CXO in place, if I'm going to them, what kinds of conversations should I be having with that CXO to make sure that how I'm guiding the strategy and direction for my marketing team Lean is actually going to support that frictionless experience, you know, the long term value of the customer? Like, what should that relationship look like? What kind of conversations and things should we be talking about?

Brian Powers  15:11

Great question. And a lot of that can be done privately so that you're not having that debate, discussion, engagement publicly with others. And that discovery, because you're the leadership, you should know, I've been told before, what why are we serving our customers like your head of CX, you should know what they want? Like, yeah, but then I want to be able to show others quantifiably. Here's the demographics who are purchasing, here's the time that they're purchasing and the average retention, or bought based on programs. So it's a crossover between marketing and experience, blending in voice of customer to show, where are these customers expressing dissatisfaction, or satisfaction, right, with certain parts of the product, or the overall delivering the communication is key, and that they're working together with that outside in lens of reading, what the expectations are looking at all the communications along the way, and making sure that they steer the customer in the right direction, right. So we had another issue where we were just getting bombarded with calls and people were confused. So we had taken the phone number off the website doesn't solve anything, because now KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK customers are at your door, they're at your warehouse or their offices, they still need to have their questions answered. So we can look at pieces of collateral that are going to the customer, what is being explained to them? Is it clear? Or are they coming back with more questions? So it's, and then harnessing that with a large amount of samples to not just say, Mary Jo, in Nebraska said, but actually, what we're finding is 82% of the customers are falling out or clicking this and not following up here we like another example is, do we want to put the phone number right at the very top, or First you give other digital channels touchpoints chatbots, website, mobile app, and then really small print at the bottom the phone number, because that helps CX marketing's like, hey, people want to talk to a person, let's put the number up top. Let's another example. Sorry, they used to put that on the back of remote controls. And the number one call was about the battery needing to be replaced. So take the number off, make it make them do a little bit of work, maybe they'll do self discovery and resolve the issue without a call.

Brandi Starr  17:31

That's interesting that, you know, people would see a number on the back of the remote and think to call for but anywho I really liked like one of the things you said that I want to kind of go back to you talked about the data that is available. And I think that is a place where the marketing leaders can really tap into CX is one of the things that we talk about a lot is like hyper targeted segmentation, like really segmenting the audience to the point that the communications come across as if they're one to one. But being able to do that in masses. And the biggest pushback, or the most common thing that I hear is, yeah, that sounds great. And all we'd love to do that. But we don't have the data that supports that level of understanding. And what it sounds like is that what CX is doing is a place where some of that knowledge and understanding, you know, may not completely solved the problem, but that it is a real starting point that that is information that is being collected around who buys who stays all those sorts of things. Is that an accurate assumption?

Brian Powers  18:47

It is it's a great crossover into predictive analytics for retention reasons. So you you can look to see if someone has been using their licenses for their software that you sold them, or are they logging into your website and using the portal, because if they aren't, and that drops off through analytics, we can see if that's a leading indicator for potential churn, then you get the proactive outreach, or you ever get the random coupon for a restaurant you haven't been to in a while they're poking because they feel like you might have moved on to somebody else, they want to win you back because they're looking at these analytics. So that is a good example of a crossover between customer experience and marketing data.

Brandi Starr  19:28

Okay. And I know in a lot of marketing organizations marketing owns the communication journey of how communications are you know, going out when they're being sent those sorts of things. Cx owns the overall journey experience, but if I think about like on the customer marketing side, there tends to be a little friction there in you know, I've seen like a lot large part of my career has been in customer marketing and So I've seen a lot of times where marketing is like, Oh, we only focus on prospects, and this other random team send stuff to customers. But it's it is, you know, very like random, like, Oh, they're only getting renewal notices, or they're only getting these things and there are no real communications that help with cross sell upsell, you know, real retention, it is more transactional. Like an any thoughts around that friction? Or why? Because I know I've not had visibility into why it's happening. I just see that it's happening. And it's one of those things that I'm like, Why does marketing not own that? Why are they not being pulled in?

Brian Powers  20:45

I think every communication is an opportunity to cross sell upsell, if it's not being pushed, right, that's back to how they're being measured. So it's your ARPU, right, so they want to increase that share of wallets. These are probably bad buzzwords, too. But you want to maximize that without being pushy, you want to have that overall relationship, and not try to continue to add on to the services. But you have to look at every communication from the lens of how's the customer going to see this, when do we keep that open rate. And if we continue to spam them too much, you're going to end up just that in the spam folder, and they're going to be ignoring that. So these masks marketers on the consumer data, they have to look at the open rates, identify personas of people who are buying ladies wear versus men's wear, or maybe they're buying children's wear, and then you can target them with those communications that are more targeted and feel more personal, based on their personas. So you can discover that through using the demographics, the customer feedback, the purchasing history, and like I said, if somebody hasn't been purchasing, or they've suddenly changed their purchasing habits, is that something that you can target with a retention or Winback? Program?

Brandi Starr  21:56

Okay, yeah, and I think that is that is helpful. And it is really, it's almost like an organizational change that just has to happen, at some point in that marketing is gotta be able to control those communications. And or at least be aware of them, like I, you know, did an exercise with a client, where we were trying to map all of the email communications, like, who goes into what campaign when, at what stage in their journey on both the prospects and the customer side? And in doing some research, I asked, you know, some software company, and I asked like, Okay, after they buy, what do they get? And nobody in marketing had the answer. And so I was like, Okay, this is your homework, go talk to all of the peoples, and, you know, come back with what's being sent. And when they did it, they came back with this hodgepodge of emails, it was like, the system was automatically sending some emails that were just triggered, because it was software, the, you know, implementation team had their own cadence of communications, there were certain systems, they had to get set up in for support. And they were sending emails, they all look different. They were being sent at, you know, the same times, sometimes it was, like, conflicting information. And it was like, How does no one know, these things are happening? Like, even if you don't control it? How is this not a conversation that's happening? And I really think that that demonstrates the lack of ownership and a lot of organizations, that whole journey, because everybody's like, well, we're responsible for this. So we just focus on that. And it's like, no one is really looking across.

Brian Powers  23:49

We looked at that previously. And within one journey, there's 132, different collaterals that could trigger. And you need to stop those and test them. Because there's stuff that ends up in there that should not, or they don't have an active URL that goes somewhere for that upsell, cross sell. I had a bad link sent to me just the other day by the county for a form I didn't go into the county asked for the forum. They're like, we've been doing this for months, nobody. So it's great when people can bring those things up to you that and alert you that customer feedback, dead phone numbers, dead bad URLs, messaging that that's incomplete, or in the old language. And then anytime we rebrand all the time right now with companies, so those legacy icons and badges are still on websites that you maybe forgot where they are because they're microsites and you don't actively manage them, but they still have the old name the brand old pricing.

Brandi Starr  24:50

Yeah, and I think with with AI that is becoming a much bigger issue. Because right now, you know, search is One way that is common for people to get to old stuff. But you know, as people are leveraging generative AI and asking various AI engines, questions that they would normally go to search, it's like you have the potential, you know, a much greater potential for that stuff to get surfaced? Yeah,

Brian Powers  25:21

we call them artifacts, right? So just because you took it off your site doesn't mean it's not archived on one of these SEO databases. So you need to cleanse so you can do that internally or use firms to help find these pages that might still exist, or if they are searching for one of these bots might still come up with one that was changed months ago.

Brandi Starr  25:42

Yeah. And I know, you know, AI is, of course, a hot topic. How are you seeing AI impact the customer experience roll?

Brian Powers  25:52

AI is fun. If it's done properly, I think I wish that people hadn't launched chatbots and the interactive voice until they were fully cooked, right? They've been testing it on us seeing what works. Now they're building what's called large language models. They're learning what interactions work better. There's entire new career tracks for kids coming out of school to be AI agents, AI specialists, conversational engineers. So it's changing customer service. And that more and more, we're talking about segments of people, but the younger demographics, choose not to phone, they want to have a less confrontational courage behind the keyboard approach like chat chatbots mobile app for now, generative AI, right. So it's improving customer service, and that the lower level things that maybe you had to call for before like making a payment, changing an address, you can do those now by speaking with this AI bots, either through the phone or a chatbot without using an agent. So it's reducing our costs. And it's increasing satisfaction or NPS because we're supporting you in the touch point of your choosing. So so far, it's been good, it's a threat, because a lot of the menial tasks are going away. But if it's making it faster for customers to get service, they're better. And then analyzing what people are asking for, lets us build more functionality into these bots so that it can get smarter and do more things, which hopefully is proactive and not reactive.

Brandi Starr  27:24

Yeah, I know, I definitely am a fan. From a customer experience perspective, I'm one that I don't like to call, it just is, you know, it's disruptive for me to have to pick up the phone and call the, you know, handles some sort of personal business, I'd much rather be able to do it via a bot or you know, some places even have where they do it via text. But it is a whole lot more frictionless because I can, you know, be doing two things at once and not have to give up that focus time. Time there. So yeah, it is it's definitely like, I think the whole customer experience, and that journey AI I agree with you completely is gonna play a pivotal role. And, you know, even my hope is that because more is done through technology, that customer service as a whole, they'll start to have like higher caliber agents, because you need fewer of them. So you pay them more you have you know, that's my my personal hope as a consumer. I agree. Well, awesome. Talking about our challenges is vert, just the first step, and nothing changes if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework, but here at revenue rehab, we like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So if I'm a head of marketing, I'm listening, I recognize that, you know, don't have the greatest relationship with CX or there's some disconnect, in what marketing is doing as it relates to the overall customer journey. What's my first step where, you know, where can I start to help to move the needle in making sure that we are creating this frictionless experience?

Brian Powers  29:11

Thank you. Yeah. So what I started to say earlier, look at it from the outside in as a customer, and I'll pick on my parents who are elderly. And if if they can navigate our website, or order something through the phone, then I know that I've brought it to the right level, right, because, but it's like a small small focus group of a family member. And before you said, we weren't aware of certain communications or messages that were going out. So go through your own company's processes, with someone who's outside the industry just to see if something made sense to them, gives you that outside in a different perspective. And the other homework is bring a CX person to a meeting, or just have them invited just to listen in and understand the planning because then they get to understand the end to end journey of the ideation Through the overall campaign, how it's implemented, what measures you're using to assess that success.

Brandi Starr  30:06

I like that I remember bringing a kid to Work Day was really big when I was younger. So it's gonna be bring a CX person to a meeting as a good action items, because I do think that that's why a lot of the silos and organizations exist is the right people are not a part of the conversations. And so tapping into that is important. I really have enjoyed our discussion, Brian, but that's our time for today. But before we go, how can our audience stay connected with you?

Brian Powers  30:40

Oh, through LinkedIn, if you see Brian powers, Atlanta, I've got a wonderful photoshopped picture up there. Or I'm connected to you as well. So if they're on LinkedIn, they can look for the Brian powers that's connect to you as the best way.

Brandi Starr  30:57

Awesome, well, we will make sure that we link to your LinkedIn in all of the show notes. So wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, you can connect with Brian. Likewise, if you want to continue the conversation, I encourage you to go back to Episode 19, where I talked to Christina about voice of customer. And I think that really ties in to what we're talking about here in that you know, communication journey and owning the customer journey. Well, Brian, thank you so so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to come to the couch today. And for those that are listening, I hope you have enjoyed my conversation with Brian. Can't believe we're at the end. We'll see you next time.

Outro VO  31:42

You've been listening to RevenueRrehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning is just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenuerehab.live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.